As no_fun_girl pointed out, I was using that language on purpose. I feel this entire thread as devolved into a bunch of wanna-be “alpha males” thumping their chests and trying to out do each other in how much they’re going to punch Nazis. Frankly, I find it all a bit ridiculous.
I know everyone is upset and furious about what happened in Charlottesville, I know I am, but broad proclamations aren’t going to help. Punching Nazis isn’t going to help. Instead of trying to be the biggest baddest gorilla in the pack, showing off for everyone else, I think people here should focus on things that can actually have tangible effects. I’m in no way holding myself out as an example, because I know I can do more as well, but all these armchair activists suddenly saying they’re going to start punching Nazis is bullshit.
The amount of push back I’m getting is because I’m saying the Emperor Has No Clothes and that most people here aren’t go to punch anyone, let alone a Nazi.
I see it more as signaling that the danger is enough that some of us are perfectly willing to use violent resistance at some point, and are not going to condemn others who believe that said point has already passed.
The danger of these people is real, and they have killed. I will never admonish anyone who uses violence in self-defense. Considering what these people advocate, violence against their advocacy is definitely within the realm of justifiable self-defense.
I similarly applaud the destruction of that confederate “monument” in Durham, and I hope that many more are destroyed in the coming months.
In the Wiemar, once the fascists were able to march unopposed by violence, they rapidly escalated. Every inch of civil discourse space that was ceded they took and then pushed further. The fact that they were not violently opposed at certain points signaled a turning point of rapid expansion and consolidation of power. They could not have gained so much ground had they been more forcefully opposed earlier. They were unafraid of violence and thus had a free hand to further perpetuate their awful vision.
When have I ever said that I’m against violence in self-defense?
My point is that simply marching, simply shouting, simply waving a flag, while absolutely abhorrent, and vile, and scary, and every other adjective you can think of, does not rise to the level of violence. It’s speech, and in this country, speech is protected, even if we hate it. I would love to punch all Nazis, but we have laws for a reason. We can’t live in a society where it’s ok to just punch random people, regardless of who they are, even if they are Nazis, because you want to.
The Weimar Republic was also under crippling economic stress, much of which was due to the external pressures of reparations and (for a period of time) the occupation; later this was compounded on by the effects of the Great Depression.
The slide to fascism was remarkably quick, yes, but I don’t think it would have happened at all without the knock-on effects of World War I and especially the Treaty of Versailles.
Just to throw some shade. Nobody can know. How sure can anyone possibly be about all of the causes in the last slide of fascism and just how many of them we need to have it happen again?
Punching Nazis is a material tactic as well as a power fantasy. Being a Nazi, however, is also a power fantasy. It gives white failures a framework to shift their self loathing onto an other and feel good about themselves. And, for a lot of these guys, their white pride is tied up in the belief that their opponents are weak and scared of them. There are a few hard core fascists and always will be, but the Overton window of tolerating Nazi “speech” is shift back towards “fuck the fuck up you Nazi fucks we fucked you up once we’ll do it again” keeps them in the margins.
It’s interesting to note that eugenics and fascism had taken root in (and in the case of eugenics, began in) America but didn’t take over due to World War II pretty much ruining fascism as a political platform for the time being. People tend to say that the degree of economic strife that occurred in Germany is necessary for fascist rise, but it’s pretty clear it just expedites the process.
There was one time in school I was doing a trust exercise and I was blindfolded. Another student was giving me instructions on where to walk. He maliciously instructed me to walk into a bench and I tripped and hurt myself.
Those are important points, but ultimately it’s quite difficult to evaluate the counterfactual here. What’s your basis for claiming that eugenics and fascism didn’t take over in the U.S. due to World War II?
It’s clear that World War II would have played a major role in suppressing fascism, both due to innate “us vs them” mechanisms and due to intentional government action, but can you really claim that without the war fascism would have taken over in the U.S.?
Are you suggesting that if the Japanese had never attacked Pearl Harbour, the U.S. would have become a fascist state?
That’s one of the biggest “forgotten” nuances of the holocaust. We were the inspiration, what with our racial chattel slavery, our genocide of indigenous people/culture, and all our BS “science” justifying it all. The blueprint was there.
Well fascists come and go bur fruit, well fruit has been around for years, decades even. No you know what your getting with fruit. Unless its a crab apple, those are tricky buggers. Or maybe a grape with a stone in it but the box doesn’t say so you knacker your teeth on it. No fruit, now that is where its all about.
And you think I’m blind to my own privilege? In a thread where a bunch of mostly white males think they have the freedom to punch whomever they want, I’m the one who’s blind to my own privilege?
Rym keeps talking about history, and he makes excellent points, but no one addresses my points about history. How historically, it was the weak, and the minority, and the underrepresented that weren’t allowed to speak. They were the ones who were violently assaulted for daring to protest, daring to share their views. That’s why the Freedom of Speech is so important, to protect those not in power. Because yesterday’s Civil Rights protesters are today’s Nazis, are tomorrow’s we don’t know yet.
I’m not saying we have to tolerate Nazis, I’m not saying that we have to accommodate them, I’m not saying that businesses can’t fire them for their views, all I’m saying is that speech does not warrant violence. When I made my first comment in this thread when someone asked if it was ok to punch Nazis yet, I honestly never believed that I would get this type of response. The sheer willingness, the almost eagerness and bloodlust to punch a Nazi is shocking to me. I don’t want to make this about me, but I hate Nazis just as much as everyone here, maybe more so, but that doesn’t mean that I’m willing to compromise my beliefs.
If that makes me privileged in your eyes, so be it.
I will take many things but not OJ. Noooo sir why oranges are the life blood of the human. That small orange orange has all the vim and vinegar to help our boys give Wellington a good thrashing in the rugger four sore bottoms to one smacked dongrel! no no I’ll have none of this anti orange talk. Its that sort of thinking that can spread!
(read in the voice of general Meltched. Also Oj is good but not as good as apple juice or grape but still its important for hangovers)