You know who else didn’t like monuments to Robert E Lee.
2 Likes
There’s actually a really good opinion piece in the Washington Post, by Jennifer Rubin, advocating that “April 9 should be a national holiday commemorating the Confederacy’s surrender and the magnanimity displayed by President Abraham Lincoln and U.S. generals toward their defeated foes.”
3 Likes
I posted that here Nazis marching in America - #178 by no_fun_girl
Glad people read it this time.
6 Likes
As far as I’m concerned, the only fair punishment for trashing Confederate statues would be community service: specifically the community service of cleaning up any leftover debris. Other than that, yeah, tear them down, legally if you can, via civil disobedience if you must.
4 Likes
I wish I could believe no jury would convict them, but the jury is guaranteed going to be made up of middle-aged suburban whites.
both-sides-ism can fuck off.
4 Likes
This is good reading. My absolute favorite is the final statement in the article:
Out of my faith calling, I feel led to pursue disciplined, nonviolent direct action and witness. I helped lead a group of clergy who were trained and committed to the same work: to hold space on the frontline of the park where the rally was to be held. And then some of us tried to take the steps to one of the entrances. God is not OK with white supremacy, and God is on the side of all those it tries to dehumanize. We feel a responsibility to visibly, bodily show our solidarity with the oppressed and marginalized.
A phalanx of neo-Nazis shoved right through our human wall with 3-foot-wide wooden shields, screaming and spitting homophobic slurs and obscenities at us. It was then that antifa stepped in to thwart them. They have their tools to achieve their purposes, and they are not ones I will personally use, but let me stress that our purposes were the same: block this violent tide and do not let it take the pedestal.
The white supremacists did not blink at violently plowing right through clergy, all of us dressed in full clerical garb. White supremacy is violence. I didn’t see any racial justice protesters with weapons; as for antifa, anything they brought I would only categorize as community defense tools and nothing more. Pretty much everyone I talk to agrees—including most clergy. My strong stance is that the weapon is and was white supremacy, and the white supremacists intentionally brought weapons to instigate violence.
Well, there’s been this bit of a blow up with Section 44 of the Constitution - you can’t be a dual citizen, and serve in parliament, basically. You can be an immigrant - in fact, two of our last three prime ministers were immigrants - but you have to renounce any dual citizenships.
Section 44 is basically a wrecking ball swinging through parliment right now - It started with two members of the greens finding out that they were dual citizens, One of NZ, one of Canada. Then a senator found out he was a dual citizen of Italy, because when he was much younger, his mother applied for citizenship on his behalf, and never told him - which, it turns out, is surprisingly common, especially with greek and italian communities down here.
Then, we had one of our most anti-immigration politicians, Malcolm Roberts, turn out to be an Indian/UK Colonies citizen. Which caused extra trouble, because he denied it, denied all knowledge of it, called it all fake news and a hit-job…Until Buzzfeed News dug through the national archives and found his immigration documentation and paperwork from when he was 19, where he signed by his own hand, as a legal adult, that he was an Indian/UK Colonies citizen. He’s now before the senate.
The deputy prime minister - who was perfectly happy to pile on when it was the greens members, saying there was “No Excuse” recently found out due to a journalist digging into his past, and discovering that he should be a dual citizen, if he hasn’t renounced…but found no record of his renouncing it. Nor could the NZ government, when they were asked. Barnaby Joyce, the DPM, wasn’t actually aware he was an NZ citizen and therefore needed to renounce his citizenship, leaving him in a pretty murky situation.
5 Likes
Maybe they need to get that section 44 removed…
So since apparently multiple people have told me that I’m being silly or ridiculous for wanting moral logic and some kind of consistent rule of who it is OK to punch, and when it’s OK to punch them, I haven’t been able to stop thinking about that, because that’s just how my brain works.
Also, since apparently almost everyone thinks it’s OK to punch a Nazi whenever, let’s go with that. Let’s take that premise and go from the theoretical realm to the practical.
First question:
Is being a member of the KKK, a white nationalist group, a member of the Alt-Right the same as being an actual Nazi? Are they all just different names for the same thing? If so, can they all be punched? If they’re not all the same, do some of them get punched and some don’t? If they all don’t get punched, why not? Who gets to decide? What criteria do we use?
Second question:
If it’s fine to punch a Nazi, now we have to talk about who’s a Nazi and what makes them a Nazi. The guy wearing a Swastika armband and waving a Nazi flag is the easy example. But what about a hypothetical 5 year old kid who goes with his dad and his older brother to a rally because they take him, or because he doesn’t know any better? Is it ok to punch that 5 year old? If not, why? Because he’s too young? Because he doesn’t know any better? What if he was 8? What if he was 12, or 15? When does someone “officially” become a Nazi instead of just being a young kid or an impressionable youth? And even if we can all decide on a certain age, what are you going to do, go up to a person and ask to see their ID so you can find out if it’s OK to punch them? “Excuse me Nazi scum, do you mind showing me your driver’s license so I can figure out if I can punch you?”
What if you saw a picture of a young man in his 20s at a Nazi parade 20-30 years ago. Is there a statute of limitations on being a Nazi? Could you still punch him now? What if after that parade, he realized what he believed was wrong? What if he never participated in a Nazi or white supremacist parade again? Is it still ok to punch him? Can we punch Christian Picciolini, the founder of Life After Hate? (Side note, if you want to support an organization that combats extremism, this is a great one.)
Christian Picciolini readily admits that he used to be a Nazi. Does every former Nazi have to found an organization to publicly renounce their previous beliefs? Does every Nazi or wanna-be white supremacist have to publicly disavow their prior beliefs, however strong or weak they were, however fleeting or long-held? Who decides if that disavowal or apology is genuine or not? Are we now going to judge if former Nazis or white supremacists actually meant it? Is there some checklist or specific way a former Nazi needs to renounce those beliefs? If so, what are they? (And yes, I know that using Christian Picciolini is a ridiculous, example, but that’s entirely my point).
One of the members of this forum admitted that when he was younger, he had some Islamophobic ideas. I believe that person when they say they don’t believe them anymore, but what if someone else didn’t believe that person? What if instead of having Islamophobic ideas, that member of this forum had anti-Semitic ideas and flirted with Nazi ideology. Can we punch that person? Does that person now have to do a mea culpa and ask for forgiveness in order not to be punched? Does it have to be public? What if I see their apology but you don’t? Can you still punch them? What if I believe that person has sincerely renounced those beliefs but someone else doesn’t? Can that other person still punch that member of our forum?
What if a person doesn’t advocate for the extermination of Blacks and Jews, but just wants them out of the country? Black people should go back to Africa and Jews should go to Israel, or somewhere. Does that make them a Nazi? Does that open them up to being punched? Who gets to decide?
Which brings us to my Third Question:
What if there is disagreement whether someone is an actual Nazi or not, or if they still believe Nazi ideology? Who gets to decide if that person gets punched or not? What if you think no and I think yes? Who gets to decide? What qualifications does a “judge” need to have be able to decide if a person is a Nazi or not and deserves to be punched?
If you’re in favor of punching Nazis, these are the questions you need to think about and be able to answer. And if you can’t answer them, maybe you shouldn’t go around punching people.
This is why we need moral logic and a consistent rule. This is why we need laws, because as I wrote before, without laws, all we have is anarchy. It’s all fine and good to talk about theoretically punching Nazis, but when you take that idea in the abstract and put it into the real world, it becomes a lot more complicated. At what point does reacting to actual danger and threats turn into thought-policing? The “I know it when I see it” standard isn’t good enough. If people want to change the laws to outlaw Nazis and hate speech, like they have in Europe and other parts of the world, that’s one thing, but just deciding that it’s just OK to punch someone is completely different.
4 Likes
If someone stands on a soapbox and declares “juden raus” or equivalent, or goose steps around intimidating or threatening people to promote fascism, and an anarchist drives them off using force, I am confident that I will not feel bad for the fascist.
You may apply this rule to all of your rhetorical examples.
3 Likes
When you’re out on the street and the nazis are marching with assault rifles, you just keep asking all those difficult questions. I’m sure they will patiently stand there and wait while you decide whether or not it is OK for you to use violence to stop them.
Now to be fair goose stepping can be very funny at times.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfl6Lu3xQW0
I would not punch someone with an assault rifle that is stupid. Hell even if they have a weapon then I’d still be a bit weary of having a fight with them. Its like the basics of fighting, they have a weapon you run like buggery because it does not end well.
2 Likes
Way to completely dodge my questions and points by picking the most obvious and easiest example you could possible think of. So you would use violence in those situations, but what of the countless and myriad others that would occur in every day life?
I don’t think anyone’s punching people who aren’t doing those things? I mean, it’s impossible to bring judgment on someone for thoughtcrime, I’m pretty sure every discussion about punching Nazis has involved some political action on the part of the person being punched, and everyone else is assuming that context. The thread title is “Nazis marching in America.” They’re not sitting at home in quiet reflection about a white ethno-state. I mean, I’m sure they do that too, but those aren’t the people getting punched.
1 Like
To be fair, there’s a far cry between “I speak and vote in favor in X” and “I march with an AR in favor of X”, and jabrams is referring to scenarios closer to the former than the latter.
2 Likes
I will entertain your questions by giving you the calculus I used when I have physically bullied visible white supremacists at metal shows (which is a blessedly rare occurrence, but is also a thing that I have done and will continue to do with no remorse).
-the venue is a metal show where there is a generally-accepted culture of consensual violence
-the person must have a high likelihood of being the age of majority (i.e. no bueno at an all-ages show, unless I see them buy a beer at some point during the night)
-the person must be wearing or carrying visible Nazi or white supremacists paraphernalia (i.e. armband, flag, tattoos of symbols, t-shirts of known white supremacist bands), or otherwise visibly endorse said behavior (i.e. by chanting white supremacist slogans or otherwise expressing white supremacist sentiments)
-the person must be doing their Nazi shit in a way that bothers people or makes them feel uncomfortable
-I must be willing to accept the consequences of my actions (which I am, but I find that most bouncers or security guards look the other way when skinhead fucks are on the floor)
If these conditions are met, I am wrecking somebody’s shit until they leave. I’ve punched one once, and have abused a handful physically otherwise. I still smile when I think about it.
And to add: I am not the only member of the extreme metal community who does this, and it’s done across the US to such great effect that we (as a community on the whole) have successfully reduced the population of Nazi fucks at our shows.
Judge as you will. Aggressive marginalization of the people clearing espousing this ideology works in at least this particular setting.
6 Likes
Richard Spencer was punched while giving an interview, while talking to a reporter. A random person just came up to him and blindsided him, punching him in the face. As I wrote in a previous post, while some small part of me chuckled, the other part of me thinks that the guy who punched him in the face just committed battery.
When I asked @Apreche about this, at first, he didn’t answer. I had to specifically ask him if this was ok and his response was:
So now I’m asking… for those of you who want to punch Nazis, who would you punch and when would you punch them? And if someone disagrees with you, what do you do then?
I don’t want to punch Nazis. Specifically, I am thankful that some people are willing to.
Categorized under “standing on a soapbox declaring ‘juden raus’ or equivalent”. You go, anarchist punch dude. 
2 Likes