There was a lot more to that. They specifically found a group that everyone else hated the Communists who couldn’t even work with the Moderate Left party because of their mistrust for each other. Isolated, they started getting into street brawls and attacks on areas where the Communists were strong and at the same time, the Police and Government officials kept letting the Nazi’s off and out of Prison sentences for their actions. The weak Judicial system in the Weimar republic was a HUGE problem and advantage the Nazi’s had, as well as the ton of out of work and disaffected WW1 vets that were looking for work or cause. The Nazi opposition was fractured and was unable to work together from the Moderate left and the Centrist parties to the Conservative (non-Nazi’s) and the Communists. (who were literally getting marching orders from Russia) Add that with the fact that there was a TON of private political oriented Armies.
My rambling point was there was a TON of line crossing, there wasn’t much of a government to hold them accountable.
Though Ultimately the Conservatives thought they could control the Nazi’s and joined with them to form a majority ruling coalition and didn’t realize till it was too late that they Fucked up.
Doubt any of those bills will get out of Committee or stand up to the courts. I mean isn’t that the whole point of the trail, you can present evidence that it wasn’t on purpose?
You think the police officers and KKK members beating up Civil Rights activists felt bad about what they were doing? You think the state troopers felt bad when they were using hoses and dogs and billy clubs? You think the South African government felt bad about what they were doing during Apartheid? You don’t seem to understand the purpose of peaceful resistance. Peaceful resistance isn’t to make your oppressor feel sorry for you, it’s to turn public opinion against them. It’s to stand up and reveal your oppressor or your adversary for the Monsters that they are. It’s to get so much pressure put on them that they crack. That’s what happened in the South, with the Civil Rights Act, it’s what happened in South Africa with the boycott, and that’s exactly what’s happened since Charlottesville.
You wrote that “if we reach a point where the choice is between punching and losing, we must be bad guys fighting on the right side. Losing is not an option.” And I agree with you, but we’re not losing. Why were the Nazis in Virginia? Because they were removing a Confederate statue. Just in May, the City of New Orleans removed four Confederate monuments and the Mayor of that city gave one of the most powerful speeches I have ever heard denouncing everything those monuments stood for. Just today, I see an article that “the mayors of Baltimore and Lexington, Kentucky, said on Monday they would push ahead with plans to remove statues as a national debate flared anew over whether monuments to the Confederacy are symbols of hate or heritage.”
We’re winning! We don’t need to tear their statues and monuments down illegally, we can work with the government to do it together.
Maybe the difference between us is that I’m an optimist and have faith in our laws and the people around me to know that’s not going to happen. Trump said he’s going to build a wall? Let him try. Not even his own party supports that. It’s never going to happen. Thousands of people have already protested against it, and thousands more will in the future if it looks like that will change. Trump wants to ban Muslims? The Courts won’t let him. Nazis say they’re going to change our society? We may disagree on tactics, but the fact that we’re both so passionate about stopping them, that everyone on this thread is so passionate about stopping them, gives me faith and hope that they’re never going to accomplish their goals. Society is becoming more inclusive, not less, more tolerant, not less. The reasons the Nazis are making such noise now is because they’re desperate. This isn’t a sign of their strength, it’s a sign they know they’re losing. Our country is not Germany post World War I.
I refuse to live in fear. Maybe if the Nazis were actually coming to power, I would agree with you that it’s necessary to cheat and compromise our values, but we’re not anywhere near that point. And until we are, I am unwilling to compromise the values that make this country great, at least in practice. Because if we can be violent towards one group we hate today, tomorrow, next year, 10 years from now, other people could be violent towards a group we agree with.
You still can’t escape the burden of consistency of principle. We don’t have to decide between a world where it’s ok to punch anyone and a world where is not ok to punch anyone. We don’t have to apply the same logic and rules in all cases. We are not forced to decide on the morality of punching as a whole. We can, and we do, say that punching nazis is ok, and punching other people is not ok. It is ok to punch nazis now. It is not ok to punch that hypothetical group of people 10 years in the future. The real world is not constrained by semantics and logical principles. It is a mess. It’s not consistent. There are no universal principles, and that’s fine.
It’s not really a matter of optimism vs pessimism. I am also optimistic. I don’t think we will lose. It’s a matter of strategy.
Think of it this way. What if you are wrong? What if we needed to punch, but we didn’t. We do things the non-violent way. We go by the book. If we are wrong, and we needed to punch sooner, then we’re fucked. We will lose. Your strategy leaves the door open to failure. You are willing to accept a possibility of failure if it means you do not have to violate your moral code.
What if we are wrong? What if we punch, but the problem wasn’t so bad that it required punching? What if we punch too soon? Our hands might hurt. People might die. People have died. But at least nazis weren’t able to advance their agenda. I am willing to reluctantly violate my moral code because I will not allow any chance of failure.
There’s a tiny match on the floor. The floor isn’t even wooden. It’s a cold tile floor in the bathroom. I am extremely optimistic that match is not going to start a huge fire that burns down my entire house. It will just burn itself out. If I want to be sure, I can stomp on it a few times until there is no more visible flame.
But now that flame is fascism. I don’t care if it’s a tiny flame. I don’t care if it is on a cold tile floor with no way to spread. I am stomping on it extra times. I am dumping a bucket of water on that fucker. Maybe two buckets. Take no chances.
And remember:
I believe in non-violence: Non-violence is a privilege to those who are not being directly subjected to violence.
I think this is maybe the key thing that is causing disagreement. The people doing the punching are not going around punching peaceful people because they like punching. They aren’t bloodthirsty savages. They aren’t people with superhero fantasies. They are people who are victims of violence defending themselves against their oppressors. That is the punching that is happening.
I don’t see how I can ethically tell someone whose entire existences has been legislated against since the founding of this country that they should wait and let someone legally take down statues that memorialize chattel slavery and dehumanization.
I agree with you completely, and if I gave the impression otherwise, I apologize for the confusion. My point in linking to articles about governments pulling down Confederate statutes wasn’t to say that anyone should wait, but as proof that public opinion has turned. If a year ago, if I had told you that the mayor of Lexington Kentucky wanted to remove the statues honoring the Confederacy would you have believed me? I wouldn’t have believed myself, yet here we are. The tide has turned.
Really? Because I’ve seen the video of Richard Spencer getting punched, and while I may have enjoyed it somewhat because he’s a monster, he’s giving an interview. That’s the type of punching I’m against. If you’re going to advocate that punching Nazis is ok, is that the type of punching you’re in favor of? Punching a Nazi anytime anywhere? Can I now punch Jeff Sessions in the face when he’s giving an interview because I think he’s a horrible human being? What about Paul Ryan? What happens when a member of the Alt-Right decides to punch Bernie Sanders or Anita Sarkeesian? Just to pick two random examples. If that’s not ok, tell me when it is, because it seems like the people in this thread are advocating punching a Nazi whenever they feel like it.
Just gonna throw in my two cents: When Nazis show up to a rally with assault rifles and say their goal is for white people to have their own country and for white women to “no longer be sold to Jews,” then they are inciting violence and any action against them is self-defense, perhaps defense of others and our entire goddamn species.
I fucking wish we could all talk about this, but when the Nazis show up to talk they automatically bring assault rifles and discuss burning down synagogues. There’s not a lot of talking to be done here. Nonviolent protest is good, but stopping Nazis from entering public spaces in large numbers and with weapons is more important.
And I’m not just calling everyone who disagrees with me a Nazi. Watch any interview of these guys or look up their writing. They all talk about how Jews are evil, Blacks are uncivilized, and they need a white ethnostate. That’s what a fucking Nazi wants. No, Jeff Sessions is not a nazi. He’s a steaming racist turd, but that’s not the same thing. I am not being hyperbolic.
You keep looking for some consistent rule of who it is ok to punch, and when it is ok to punch them. There is no such thing. There is no consistent principle or rule anyone can come up with. And that is fine. We don’t need to draw some kind of line. Trying to think of such a rule is a pointless endeavor. Legality doesn’t matter, only morality does, and it’s vague as hell. The only thing that is clear is that if punching nazis is wrong, I don’t want to be right.
I accept that it’s ok to punch nazis. But like everything there’s degrees is it ok to punch nazi’s kids, racist old grandpa, punk kid 14 year old who hasn’t thought through his opinion yet?
If we’re going inclusive, then the me from like 6 or 7 years ago is prime punch material as I’d read some hateful atheists and thought it was hot shit.
Thinking back that’s more like 9 or 10 years ago now.
Answer my question. In that exact circumstance, or if Richard Spencer were to give another interview, would it be ok for some random person to just come up to him and blindside him? He’s not carrying any weapons that I can see, he’s speaking, so I guess by some people’s definitions he’s directly threatening others, but is that ok? Is it just open punching season on Nazis?
I’m looking for some kind of consistent rule because morality without law is anarchy. Without laws, who’s to say whose morality is correct? In that type of situation, do the people with the most guns decide what’s moral and acceptable? Is that what you’re advocating for? Does Might Make Right? A democracy can’t function that way.
No, Hitler free, but very very islamophobic ideas were ones I will say I didn’t disagree with. I’d even talk about them to people who I was close with.
I’m not proud of it but to deny it would be to pretend it didn’t happen.
I’m not going to prescribe an appropriate time, place, or manner for oppressed people to fight back against those who threaten them. The only morality I need to know is that fascism is wrong, and that I support anything and anyone that opposes fascism. I may not have punched that particular nazi at that particular time and place, but I’m not going to condemn someone who does.
I last punched someone in 2013. He attacked my girlfriend and I didn’t hesitate a split second to punch him, so much so I even still had an icecream in my hand as I did the punching. It certainly caught him be surprise.
The last real serious fight I got into was way back in 1997, in Barcelona, as two guys tried to rob my brother and me. It was pretty brutal. I won the fight, but had to go to the hospital to have my face xrayed to check for a broken nose. It wasn’t broken. Since then I’ve had my nose broken, so I know for real what it feels like.
I’m not planning to get into any fights any time soon, nor expect to be at counter-Nazi-protests any time ever, but I’ve got to admit that both the punching and the broken nose might be a price worth paying to encourage Nazis to kill fewer Jews and black people.
Thankfully I live in Germany where the authorities take care of the actual real life Nazis for us. Which is pretty cool, I must say.