GeekNights Tuesday - Baba is You

That’s a very interesting case, but I don’t know if it really applies here. With incontinence I guess the absolute worst case scenario would be to wear a diaper and change it appropriately? Cleaning themselves up in the bathroom and such, I imagine someone should be able to get through a tournament at a game store without a serious problem. I don’t see any reason they would have to disclose their condition to some Magic judge. You would know best. Do you think your patients would make it through the event alright?

What I was originally asking for are conditions that produce the classic BO smell. That smell when you exercise in some clothes and then leave them in the laundry bin for too long. That is the only B.O. smell we are concerned with.

I did some very cursory research and found some conditions that result in other smells. Sometimes diabetics with a serious problem might smell sweet. Sometimes people have a condition where they can smell fishy. I have never smelled those anywhere, let alone at a convention.

The only medical condition I can find that would result in classic BO smell is an overactive thyroid that results in excessive perspiration, even in the absence of strenuous physical activity or heat. Even in those cases, it doesn’t seem like a person who knowingly had this condition would smell awful if they showered, did laundry, and applied deodorant, and generally practiced good hygiene on a regular basis.

There are also discussions to be had about people wearing strong perfume or people who smoke and smell like an ash tray. I’m definitely feeling more and more like it is perfectly acceptable to outright ban anyone who smells bad. If someone unluckily gets sprayed by a skunk on their way to the convention, they have to go get the tomato bath before they can come back. Does that even really work?

They are totally different situations, agreed. The issue is that you are expecting people who are not medical professionals to make judgement calls about what does or does not qualify as an acceptable condition.

In the broad sense, yeah. There are things that people can do to mitigate some of these things, but they aren’t perfect. Any of these solutions that depends on someone subjectively saying “you smell bad, go away” are going to leave some people in the cold, so to speak. The degree to which that is acceptable is the debate.

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I agree completely. That’s why I’m interested if there really is any actual condition that would result in the classic B.O. smell. If there is such a thing, then we may just have to believe people who claim to be suffering from it, since we are not doctors. If there is no such thing, then we aren’t making a medical call, we’re just kicking out dirty people, which is perfectly acceptable.

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Zero tolerance rules in general are all bad. The BO ruling is good, but you would hope that the people tasked to enforce it are given the leeway (and are capable of) enforcing it in a logical manner.

as someone who has had the displeasure of being in proximity to horrid BO, there is a very obvious difference between guy who smells like he’s been sweating all day and troglodyte that hasn’t showered in a week. There would never be a situation in which “disruptive stank” is debatable.

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I’m not sure if this is the classic B.O. smell, but there are illnesses that can make a person smell bad. Of course, it seems like if you have one of these conditions, you probably should really get to a hospital and not just be lurking around a con or anything:

I’m guessing Scott already found this and wrote it off as the person will just smell like fish and not like BO so I’ll just quote from the wiki directly:

Trimethylamine then builds up and is released in the person’s sweat, urine, and breath, giving off a strong fishy odor or strong body odor.

Emphasis added.

I wonder if I can find a person who has this and meet them. Maybe I can find an AMA or Youtube vid at least with someone suffering from it.

I have problems with excessive sweating, particularly while playing board games (stale air, heated room, stress hormones, eating curry) T_T and still am looking for a solution that does not irritate my skin, give me migraines, stain my clothes, or stop working after a few hours. It is a huge point of frustration for me & I do my best to mitigate it. It would be 100% worse if I had people shaming me about it.

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I have heard that you can get Botox in your armpits for this, if that would address your particular case. It paralyzes the nerves that control sweat glands iirc.

That sounds like a very very bad idea.

A quick Google says studies show it’s safe and effective, been done at least since 2003 Botox is older than the cosmetic treatment, it was originally and still is used as a paralytic during nerve repair surgery.

The real problem is the subset of people who, without any obvious underlying condition, fail to engage in basic hygiene. It’s only a problem because, for whatever reason, a high percentage of people who play games socially have this problem, to the point that it’s commonly understood to be disruptive.

Cons have to figure out the line below which they remove the disruptive person from the event.

If the line is too high, it harms people with disabilities. If the line is too low, it harms everyone else who attends the event. The latter easily leads to people generally and actively avoiding the event.

The smell was one of the reasons I stopped going to Ubercon. Not the only reason: travel to NJ was also high on that list. But it was a reason. PAXes are very blessed in that it’s much less of a problem there than at, say, any local gaming con.

The game store in Rochester had people who smelled so bad I couldn’t bear to be in the building for longer than necessary. Roll in, buy some dice, GTFO.

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I sit next to people at work with the worst BO. And it’s not like some young guy who maybe hasn’t figured out life. It’s people my dad’s age and beyond, who are absolutely devoid of fucks on any plane. One is sat behind me as I type this, only a foot away. I doubt he has showered within the last week. I don’t think he owns deodorant. He yells into a phone. He eats loudly. I smell him all the time, but I still smell his lunches.

He should just not be at a game tournament.

Or on an airliner for that matter.

So if there’s a rule that says “do your best to not be a disruption, please take reasonable and quality care of yourself for everyone’s benefit” I’m going to support it. And yeah if someone’s like “I took reasonable measures, but this is the best I can do” I know humans are quite capable of handling it for a time, when needed. If the game is that important.

Or at a job. That’s gross. Report him or otherwise make him be not disgusting.

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So, I do have direct experience dealing with this from running RIT Anime. We spent a lot of time trying to come up with a policy that was fair and empathetic. It was not easy.

The most important thing was that the process was private. If someone was complained about (or we discovered their issue), a member of the executive board would take them aside.

The script was to explain to them that there was an odor, and that we wanted to give them a heads up so they could “go home, take care of it, and return to continue enjoying RIT Anime.” Had to be framed as a friendly heads-up.

If they tried to give an excuse, we’d hear them out. If it sounded medical, we’d talk to them. (We only ever had one person with a medical issue, and he was granted a blanket exception to the smell rule). If it was anything else (e.g., was at the gym, didn’t have time to change, laundry machine broken, etc…), we’d guide them to “go home and take care of it however you need to.”

The hope was that no one would refuse to leave, would use the framing as an ego shield, and would try hard to not be spoken to about this again.

I had to have this conversation dozens of times over the years.

For some, the conversation never happened again. They returned the next week fresh as a daisy.

For a handful, they never returned to the club.

For ~5 of them, this conversation had to happen again every couple of weeks. And again. And again… We never got to the point of actually banning them.

Twice someone didn’t take the “friendly heads-up” well and refused to leave. It was a difficult situation that touched on some mental health issues, so I won’t share the details in a public forum.

He has been this way for over a decade

Union doesn’t give a shit. Company doesn’t give a shit.

Push really hard for him to get promoted. Praise him to superiors. Just get him into a job where he has to sit near someone who will suffer.

I’d argue the Union’s requirement to protect all employees may be getting in the way of them doing just that when it is an employee who is the issue.

We’ve had to develop some obtuse process for dealing with such issues and have partnered with management to develop policies, like a no-scent policy, that allows for people to be told, not asked, to leave if they fail to meet hygiene standards, or use perfume, and allows to exceptions due to medical issues, while protecting the member’s privacy about the situation.

Doing all that was far more complicated than one may realize but did help deal with such issues. My recommendation if such a thing is a serious issue is to get involved with your union, either through a local steward or your site organizer if the steward is unhelpful, and see if management will come to the table to bargain a policy on the topic.

I’ve given my two weeks notice, so I hopefully only have to worry about my own 9 layers of stank hell going forward. I tried getting moved to other groups, etc. At this point it’s time to move on entirely.

But I don’t think whoever takes my seat will have better luck.

I told an older supervisor who works in another building about sitting next to “Mr Joe” and he started complaining that mere mention of the name ruined his appetite. Said he’d had to work with the guy many years back and had managed to move him to the group I’m in now. The people here get stuck into holes where they are useful, and they build their little monopolies of specialization, where they aren’t in the way. This guy has already been filtered into this hole long ago. He ain’t going anywhere now.

But yeah, for many reasons I’m finally done with this place. But the smells and other misc quality of life things are a factor in why I’m glad to GTFO.