"It’s both possible, and even necessary, to simultaneously enjoy media while also being critical of its more problematic or pernicious aspects.”
― Anita Sarkeesian
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The issue is that some find everything problematic and to the same degree. A short skirt is as bad as being attracted to little girls for some apparently.
I feel like I should repost the quote in all caps or something.
I’ll try restating it with different words. And also making explicit the parts it leaves implicit.
It’s cool to enjoy stuff even if it has problems, and its probably cool to talk about those problems. Disagreeing with this statement by saying some people find everything problematic is literally how we got a gamergate.
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Ok I should frame my response better. What is problematic is different for different people and I think there are quite a few whose view of what is problematic casts a far too wide and unhelpful net.
Wow, this is a really stupid argument.
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2B’s design is literally the embodiment of exploitative male gaze. If you cannot look at her character design and understand why, please go read articles on the topic to inform yourself. Her design is an utterly unrealistic male sexual fantasy, and it doesn’t matter if the character is in unsexy situations because “sexy form in unsexy situations” is itself a well-known trope of exploitative male gaze. She’s a sexy goth maid and badass fighter. That’s a fetish, though I wouldn’t say this character design is itself “fetishy,” it just evokes and appeals to that sensibility.
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You can absolutely enjoy a thing that is driven by exploitative male gaze and not be a bad person. No, really, you can. You can enjoy fetishy depictions and weird porn and whatever other fantasy you want to because it’s your life and nobody can actually tell you what to think or feel. Enjoy your media, understand when and where it is appropriate to share it. Read the room, own your side of the discussion.
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Acknowledge the problems in the media you consume. “Problematic” is inherently subjective, and there is such a thing as multiple parallel truths. You can enjoy a thing and find it not problematic, another person can find it wildly problematic, and you can both be right because “problematic” necessarily includes personal perspective.
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It is entirely possible that the creator chose to use exploitative male gaze to make some kind of point. That doesn’t make it not a problematic choice, because life choices do not break down into some kind of arbitrary “good thing/bad thing” dichotomy. You acknowledging a thing as problematic even when you don’t personally find it so is you saying that another’s perspective on life is valid, and if you want women to participate in this forum again you better fuckin’ learn how to do that real quick.
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2B has an exceptionally well-animated ass.
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I have literally never heard anyone in lefty / “woke” circles say this. All I have ever heard is if you like sexy male gaze stuff you’re a bad feminist and a shitty person and a pervert… I’m not those things.
Try listening more. No, really. I’m not kidding. Listen more, stop getting defensive, stop reading into things.
I’m telling you this a leftist woke guy who runs in feminist circles.
I believe you have heard those things, but I also believe you are also not fully listening or engaging in good faith if “literally nobody” has said those things to you.
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Ok, not literally “nobody,” but I see so much of that. Like the 2B thing. OK its a sexy dress made to appeal to men but so many people like @apreche see it as a personal and moral failing to like it, something inherently wrong with you.
The core of this entire discussion with all the nuance removed is as follows:
I like this thing
The thing you like has problems
No it doesn’t you’re ugly and stupid
rabble rabble rabble rabble
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could’ve fooled me with the way this conversation went.
You forgot that between “The thing you like has problems,” and “No it doesn’t!” lies “And you are a bad person for liking it.”
I didn’t stutter.
No. I do not believe that. You are putting words in my mouth.
I believe it is a personal and moral failing to put it on the front of a video game box to sell product. It’s also a failing to defend it and say it isn’t a problem.
Liking it is just liking it. People like what they like.
However, the way you are so emotionally and irrationally defensive about liking it, and imaging that people are attacking you for liking it, I see as a symptom of the very problems with it that you are denying the existence of.
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Have you -ever- listened to and read Scott and Rym and other’s opinions on this sort of media and those who consume it?
Do I look like Rym or Scott?
(I don’t) I’m not them. Try listening to the words that were actually said in this discussion. Not bringing in a bunch of stuff from outside it.
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You and Rym have literally, on your show, said “gross people I won’t associate with like this kind of thing” about slightly fanservicey anime. I’m hardly putting words in your mouth.
No cheating and leaving the thread to take anything I said elsewhere. I don’t have 15 years of records of dumb shit you said.
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Wow I bet you didn’t see this explosion coming. Keep going because the C D and E endings go super duper nuts and was a game in 2017 that I actually saw all the way to the end because of how crazy and existential everything got. I will cop to 2B being a bit cringy.
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Someone, I think it was nofungirl but someone at some point in the past on this forum said “This forum is not a monolith”.
I’ve said it a few times since and in some ways it’s helped me listen. I’ve been guilty of internally telling myself that “those two agreed on this thing that makes them on the same ‘side’” whatever that means.
Telling that to myself has helped me.
Shut up Luke keep out if this.