I think I see the issue then.
I accept that it’s ok to punch nazis. But like everything there’s degrees is it ok to punch nazi’s kids, racist old grandpa, punk kid 14 year old who hasn’t thought through his opinion yet?
If we’re going inclusive, then the me from like 6 or 7 years ago is prime punch material as I’d read some hateful atheists and thought it was hot shit.
Thinking back that’s more like 9 or 10 years ago now.
Hmmm Not sure if reading some Hateful Atheists would make you a Nazi more of just an Asshole :-p Unless those Atheists were looking up to Hilter?
Answer my question. In that exact circumstance, or if Richard Spencer were to give another interview, would it be ok for some random person to just come up to him and blindside him? He’s not carrying any weapons that I can see, he’s speaking, so I guess by some people’s definitions he’s directly threatening others, but is that ok? Is it just open punching season on Nazis?
I’m looking for some kind of consistent rule because morality without law is anarchy. Without laws, who’s to say whose morality is correct? In that type of situation, do the people with the most guns decide what’s moral and acceptable? Is that what you’re advocating for? Does Might Make Right? A democracy can’t function that way.
No, Hitler free, but very very islamophobic ideas were ones I will say I didn’t disagree with. I’d even talk about them to people who I was close with.
I’m not proud of it but to deny it would be to pretend it didn’t happen.
In response to this, I have a nice consistent rule that can be applied universally. It is explicitly ok to punch Donald Trump.
I’m not going to prescribe an appropriate time, place, or manner for oppressed people to fight back against those who threaten them. The only morality I need to know is that fascism is wrong, and that I support anything and anyone that opposes fascism. I may not have punched that particular nazi at that particular time and place, but I’m not going to condemn someone who does.
If I saw Richard Spencer giving an interview on camera it would be a perfect time and opportunity and I would take it. Or any other Nazi or racist.
I last punched someone in 2013. He attacked my girlfriend and I didn’t hesitate a split second to punch him, so much so I even still had an icecream in my hand as I did the punching. It certainly caught him be surprise.
The last real serious fight I got into was way back in 1997, in Barcelona, as two guys tried to rob my brother and me. It was pretty brutal. I won the fight, but had to go to the hospital to have my face xrayed to check for a broken nose. It wasn’t broken. Since then I’ve had my nose broken, so I know for real what it feels like.
I’m not planning to get into any fights any time soon, nor expect to be at counter-Nazi-protests any time ever, but I’ve got to admit that both the punching and the broken nose might be a price worth paying to encourage Nazis to kill fewer Jews and black people.
Thankfully I live in Germany where the authorities take care of the actual real life Nazis for us. Which is pretty cool, I must say.
Amend freedom of speech to say
“…with exception to Nazis. 1 punch directly to the Nazi face per Nazi utterance.”
I mean, a preponderance of the Western world came together many years ago and collectively said “fuck Nazis.” They aggressively marginalized and attempted to eliminate the ideology. Millions and millions of people gave their lives for the sole purpose of, basically, punching Nazis until they stopped saying Nazi shit.
I’m not one for discussion for moral right or wrong - I’m a moral anarchist - but I will say that when a preponderance of people with divergent opinions and histories and cultural backgrounds come together to tell you to get fucked with bombs, you’re probably in the moral wrong. You could try to argue some kind of objective moral high ground, but that’s pretty irrelevant when every other Western nation agrees to fuck you over.
I would also point out that there are democracies that have laws actively marginalizing Nazis, and those countries seem to have democracies that function just fine. We seem to be the only developed country in the world with some kind of complex about tolerating Nazi ideology in this day and age.
The world decided long ago that Nazis do not deserve the basic considerations that everyone else does, because fuck Nazis.
You will only ever be frustrated by this argument. You will not find some kind of moral logic here that can be extended elsewhere, because Nazis are the extreme example. Setting your norms by the extreme case is a recipe for disaster and frustration. Nazis are an exception to almost everyone’s rules about non-violence.
Fuck Nazis.
I’m going to make a really radical statement that the laws forbidding Nazi speech and symbols should be copied in the US and police required to enforce them. I am for freedom of expression but not in the case of truly poisonous rhetoric. Nazi speech is the yelling fire in a theater example writ large except the person yelling fire is an arsonist.
We have that in Canada and it’s fine.
We’ll see how this shakes out this weekend.
Stepping back from the theoretical for a moment, right now is the right time for nonviolence in my opinion. Trump doubled down on “both sides” which has drawn rebuke from actually both sides of the aisle. Easy victory for the left here.
Please turn the check while we throw you into ovens. Thank you!
worth reading this thread, imo.
https://twitter.com/solid_jews/status/897511544099135488
You have low standards for victory.
I honestly can’t believe that synagogue wasn’t provided with police protection.
Growing up, my home synagogue had two police officers stationed at the entrance every year for Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. Whenever there was a threat, the Albany police always sent officers over to protect us and deter anyone from doing anything.
That’s because police units across the country have been infiltrated by III% and white nationalists.
Me wanting to punch a Nazi is hyperbole and bravado. But it is telling that I genuinely feel I may be put in a situation at some point in the future where I will need to brace myself and be prepared to punch if it becomes necessary. If you’d asked me a year or two ago, my privileged ass would have found that inconceivable.
But oh my god, pull down the monuments. Do it as civil disobedience. It does not hurt anyone. Show the world we’re not gonna sit back and wait.
It’s been pretty clear for the last few years that police respond very different to right-leaning and left-leaning protest actions – this is clearest in comparing Charlottesville to the BLM protests of last year. When the left shows up for a march, police respond with riot gear, APCs, tear gas, and rubber bullets. In Charlottesville on Saturday, the police came in plainclothes, avoided significant intervention, and often left the Nazis and the counterprotestors to fight things out.
It doesn’t surprise me for a fucking second.
Cries for “freedom of speech” start to ring a bit hollow when the state seems to prefer protecting Nazi speech to calls for racial justice.