So your point is that because you don’t see the structural issues in these words they are not a problem. That is not a foreign concept to me and I gleaned that general feeling from the previous posts above. Just so we are clear, Pan and you did not really say much of anything racist or classist, in that oppressive mold, until you started defending the messed up things Rym and Scott et al were saying. I don’t remember ever stopping much of the useful talk about the terrible nature of the American education system so… ?
I knew you felt that way from all of your other posts in this thread. I think I might hit the posting limit on this thread soon so I’m nesting this response to the post below here. I will make another post if this violates some forum etiquette rule or enough peoples sense of chronological order.
No, that’s not at all what I was saying. Structural issues are in people, not in words—albeit primarily because words are also in people. I agree with you that some of Rym’s language here is a red flag, especially if it were coming from other people in other contexts. If Rym talks in exactly the same way in places outside the forum I’d agree that it’s problematic.
But my point is that context matters for all language, including in matters of racism.
You have a fair point there. It’s also true, however, that accusations of racism like the above can have a silencing effect; and unfortunately much more so on the people who actually care about racism than on those who don’t.
As @lackofcheese said this depends on context. If I am saying it in the context of “the system is broken and unfair” then I’m not making a racist statement, the same way as us saying “many people don’t read/process information well because of a broken ineffective and racist education system that fails everyone” is not racist despite DG’s willfully obtuse insistence it is.
I’m definitely not the first person to think of this, but I haven’t heard anyone else say it.
Impeach Trump and you get Pence who could pardon Trump as soon as he’s sworn in. Trump is actually got better chances of avoiding consequences if he gets impeached as opposed to losing the election. All the more reason to impeach Pence as well, if at all possible. But that has to happen simultaneously. He can’t be given time to be sworn in.
Sure, and fair enough, its a matter of opinion. FWIW I hope I’m wrong.
That said… The day a criminal POTUS is led away in cuffs and sent to a MaxSec prison is the day america actually cares about the rule of law. The very idea makes some people laugh. Think about that.
I concede that to be more likely, and I could see that too, but if that were to happen I’d still consider my statement “he ain’t going to prison, ever” to be accurate.
As @Naoza pointed out, you can pardon impeachment because it’s not a crime.
What could happen, although I don’t think it will, is that Trump sees he’s going to be convicted by the Senate. He voluntarily resigns from office. Pence becomes president. Pence then pardons Trump for anything he might have done. Trump tweets off into the sunset.
This scenario is essentially what happened with Nixon and Ford.
Wasn’t that a whole thing with Arpaio though? By being pardoned he essentially agrees he did the bad.
Yeah you can be pardoned before conviction but a pardon is tantamount to a legally consequence free confession. Furthermore, anything not confessed to in the pardon is still prosecutable.
Once Arpaio got pardoned by Trump, he asked the court to negate his sentence and the judge refused, basically saying that “Dude, you got convicted of these crimes. A pardon doesn’t change that, it just means you don’t have to serve your sentence anymore.”
This is arguably a bug in the constitution. With the original electoral college with second place become vice president, Hillary would be vice president right now. Since president and vice president now come as a package deal, and as presumably best buds, any president can feel very safe committing crimes, and even being impeached, knowing the vice president will likely pardon them.
It has been discussed many times that the pardon power needs to be curbed, but perhaps also impeachment should be changed such that the pres and vice pres come in as a package deal, they must both go out as a package deal. This would obviously not happen in the case of death, etc. Only if it’s impeachment do both go down together. Even if the vice pres is completely innocent, they are tainted by association and should not be able to remain in office.
This spells trouble, however, with the vice president potentially holding a tie-breaking vote in the senate where the trial is. But then again, it spells trouble today where the vice president has a strong incentive to vote yes in that trial to get themselves into office.
I also see no reason that in 2019 we couldn’t simply have the vice president become only an acting president with explicitly limited powers (e.g.: no pardoning) and hold a special election at the soonest opportunity.
"The resolution backed by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) hands the lead role to the House Intelligence Committee and its chairman, Rep. Adam B. Schiff (D-Calif.), who would have broad latitude to organize extended questioning of potential public witnesses. Two other committees who have so far participated in the closed-door investigation into Trump’s dealings with Ukraine — Foreign Affairs, and Oversight and Reform — would not be permitted to directly participate in the open proceedings under the legislation.
It also sets out for the first time the ability of House Republicans to make their own requests for testimony and documents, though those requests will ultimately be subject to a vote of the Democratic-majority committee — a practice that matches the minority powers in the 1998 impeachment of President Bill Clinton."
I’m glad they were smart enough to include the rule to quash any BS Republican subpoena. The Republicans with subpoena power could have derailed the entire impeach inquiry.
Also, no more only having 5 minutes back and forth time limits per Senator, which were stupid and ineffective:
“Under the resolution, both panels could engage in extended questioning of witnesses in rounds of up to 45 minutes, alternating between the two parties, before beginning the traditional five-minute rounds extended to panel members under existing rules. Both lawmakers and staff would be authorized to question witnesses.”
The other thing to note about impeachment and pardoning, a POTUS can only pardon federal crimes so if the investigations underway by the state of New York discover any chargeable crimes of Trump or his family then a President Pence can do nothing about those.
Also, anyone who has been pardoned loses the protection of the 5th amendment, as it relates to the pardoned crimes, as they are no longer in jeopardy of being punished for anything they would say.