One of my hobbies is literally Politics Rym. I mean it’s not even just the “Hobbyist” Politics it’s the organization and collection of local power and advancement of issues along with the numbers and stats and history of it.
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Ahh, and this is exactly what I’m getting at!
Talk about the process of the primaries or nuances of policy or how the sausage is made. Share and debate.
That tends to get rapidly derailed by the same specific fight between the “left” and the “LEFT” literally every time politics come up. It’s the exact same pointless circular fight among the same people here every time. That is toxic. That is counterproductive. You have plenty of other places to have those same fights.
The Lincoln Project thread is a good example. Talk about the evidence of efficacy. The potential fungibility (or lack thereof) of those donations. The structure of these kinds of orgs. I’m not a fan of the Lincoln Project. But I do also see a lot to discuss there. It’s not something I would say can not be discussed here because there are many points of view on what that org means, how it could be leveraged, how effective it could actually be, who was actually donating/promoting, etc…
But instead, what’s happening in there?
This toxic behavior:
@Ikatono, this post is something I would consider specifically toxic. I’ve suspended you multiple times for this kind of behavior. I don’t understand why you keep coming back. It’s passive-aggressive nonsense, and you derail literally every political conversation you’re involved in with this crap. You try to sneak it into non-political conversations too.
You are told to stop engaging in a behavior. You then push that boundary to its absolute limit time and time again.
So if we’re talking about being open. I am considering banning you for that post.
I agree. It’s such a short offhand comment, but it does not demonstrate effort to engage with the community, and it is not a constructive argument.
More importantly, I’ve talked to you about this multiple times. I’ve asked you to stop. It’s not just a one-off comment (which can and should be overlooked when good faith is clear). It’s a pattern.
Stay tuned for an updated draft of the policy. And I’m curious if anyone strongly feels I shouldn’t ban Ikatono for the above history of posting patterns.
Well, yeah, that’s part of the problem. At what point does it stop being a report, and start needing to be a dissertation on online hate just to understand the complaint? Not to mention finding evidence after the fact - I don’t have time to dig through hundreds if not thousands of tweets, retweets and replies for that shit if it’s not already reported the day I see it, and screenshots aren’t great evidence(After all, we all know the inspect element trick).
On top of that, at what point does it go from just getting proof, to an actual issue that also needs to be adressed? I mean, you can see Andy there claiming it’s creepy that people kept tabs on them, when in reality, we were just mutuals on twitter and their bad behavior algorithmically rose into my feed from time to time, or when they went for someone else I followed. The blatantly manipulative accusations of creepiness are obviously just disingenuous spin to try and discredit a complaint, because none of us are unhinged enough to think being mutuals on twitter is creepy or stalking, but it does entirely accidentally raise a decent point - where is the line on that?
Is it a hard line, or is it going to be a know-it-when-you-see-it thing - and if it’s the latter, at what point do we have to make it a hard line, because let’s not even pretend that the forum Old Guard(which does include myself) don’t get a little more leeway on clearer rules, let alone subjective ones.
Speaking of…
I’ll speak up on Ike’s behalf. Not one single thing they have done here has been any worse than how Andy has behaved over time, with no indication of changing. Unless I’ve missed a lot - and I doubt that, I’m here almost as much as Scott is - Ike has not gone further, been more consistent when they’ve been present, or otherwise been measurably worse than Andy, but as best I can tell, we’ve never spoken of Andy being banned.
If you are banning Ike, it’s only reasonable to ban Andy too, forum Old Guard or not. If you’re not willing to ban Andy then it is outright unfair to ban Ike for basically the the same sort of behavior. Don’t get me wrong, Ike absolutely shits me up the wall at times, but if you’re going to only selectively mete out punishment for certain behaviors that break the rules, there’s no point in having rules or a code of conduct at all.
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I saw something mentioned above, maybe missing a response to it with the current direction of discourse, and wanted to expand on it some.
If something is reported and deemed actionable it would be swell if the post or DM, only with consent of the reporting party, were to be saved publicly somewhere so those unaware of the malicious behaviour can be educated on who to avoid. I’m not saying leave posts where they are, which could be detrimental to the conversation and community, but rather create a public place specifical for storing offending posts or DMs. Think of this as a text version of the facial recognition app Rym talks about every so often for sharing who to avoid with friends, just for your community.
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Sort of like an archive of ya done fucked up and here’s how? Honestly, yeah, that doesn’t sound like a bad idea. I know more than a few communities who keep both public and private records of that sort of stuff in various forms.
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I believe I have made my opinion on this topic well-known repeatedly, so I’m going to spin off to another point that is somewhere between a genuine inquiry and a rhetorical question. Respond or not, this is more an observation I have for your benefit.
What is your motivation with this specific comment in this discussion right now?
I’ve seen you make direct comments to this user before that effectively threatened a ban, and it’s happened enough that it defines a pattern of interaction between the two of you. The result is that nobody actually thinks you’ll do it, and at this point even if you do, it’d be so long in the making that it doesn’t “count” as taking action.
It’s a bit like Dwight in The Office: “five citations and you get a violation, four of those and you get a verbal warning.” Drawing out the process of applying consequences divorces the action and its consequence to the point that nobody connects the two. At this point, you’d be effectively banning Ikatono for “being a dick,” which sort of subverts the desire to have clear actionable rules.
If you want to make clear actionable rules of conduct, you need to take clear action in direct response. The kind of comment I quoted here, and the kinds of comments you’ve made to this point in the past (I think I’ve seen like four?) all remove the connection between action and consequence. By and large, community leaders need to respond to needs, but not necessarily in a reactive fashion - you affirm the pillars of community conduct by taking swift action and explaining your reasoning before it gets to the point of everyone telling you that you need to do it.
There is also a degree to which this can read as you attempting to dodge the responsibility of community curation by posing the question to the community itself - a way to say “I didn’t make this choice, they did, and I am merely enacting their will.” I don’t know if that’s your motivation here - I think not and hope not - but I have seen community leaders elsewhere who make a pattern of this exact behavior. It creates division in the community as individuals feel left to fend for themselves.
This is another part of the reason why it’s important to take direct action and to own your role in doing so - because it’s putting your money where your mouth is, and shows people that you are actually serious about curating the community.
As I said, respond or not, this doesn’t really require it. I would encourage you, going forward, to not ask this question - but moreso, never even put yourself in a position where you might even have to ask this question. If you do, it means there’s a problem you’ve let go too long, and your efforts at moderation have already failed, IMO.
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So when DoubleGomez wrote a sophisticated harassment of me, which I reported both within the flagging system and to you directly, that wasn’t even worthy of a response, but when I make immature jabs at the Forum as a whole it is. Childishness is the difference.
One other factor that I think is important for many of you to consider.
This forum is just one little part of the GeekNights community. I think over time it will be less important than the other places that are used (Discords, youtube comments, streams, etc…). Forums are an old style of interaction that are not nearly as popular as they used to be.
I happen to like forums, and I want to keep this going. But this is not the center of the GeekNights community by any stretch. Some of the things we’re trying here are primarily intended to be used in those other spaces.
As for the discussion above about Ikatano with @thewhaleshark, we used the tools but did not make a public statement.
Ikatano had been formally punished. He was suspended (which included loss of privileges) with specific notes about expectations of future behavior after the suspensions expired. There was no public announcement of this, but it happened and his behavior (at least at the time) changed. Since the major suspension, the behavior was different. I had hope.
And until the message above was reported, he had either been absent or had not continued to break our rules.
Since it happened again, I posted the above, in the interest of openness. When I suspend or ban him, I’ll make a public statement and not just a private one to the individual in question.
Gotta say doing the right thing but not letting the community know does water down the effects of the right thing. We’re not gonna search usernames unprompted, if we’re not aware that toxicity has been removed, we won’t assume it.
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Oh, I agree. I’m banning Ikatono and will be announcing such in some form today with examples of the kind of behavior that will not be tolerated. Specifics (within the realm of reasonable expectations of privacy) will be included.
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I think that’s one of the pulls for me - I actively like forums, and I think they offer an interesting contrast to most modern social media, which is extremely focused on ephemeral interactions. I think there’s a desire out there for something more permanent or semi-permanent, but people have largely forgotten that forums exist (or most have died off). I think it’s actually the most interesting part of the Geeknights communities, but I’m probably a biased old man so.
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The apparent average age of people who use this forum, compared to everything else, is definitely significantly higher. And probably rising at a rate of about one year per year… 
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Yeah, there’s something to be said about the fact that I’ve talked with a lot of you for the past… 15 years? That’s an eternity in Internet years lol.
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History has a certain kind of power, especially when it’s yours. And you’re not alone, I do like the less immediate pace of forums as much as I like quick chat and so on from more immediate stuff like discord. In the end, it’s all asymmetric communication, but it has a different texture, as silly as it sounds.
The fact that I somehow age at three years per year also skews the average age…
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I have a draft of a new part of the TOS explicitly explaining the goals of the community.
Still a draft. Remember that this is in github and you can suggest changes directly. (If you don’t know how to use Git, this is a good way to learn).
Goals of the Community
A primary goal of GeekNights is to foster not just deeper, but also broader, interests among our fans. We talk about the things we’re interested in, and we hope to get you interested too. We want the anime fan to read some American comics and play some videogames. We want the Magic player to try an FPS or get into Opera. We want the Opera nerd to learn to solder. We want to hear about what you’re interested in as well. Share your hobbies and nerderies with us, and with our broader community. The more we all share, the more interests we may all find!
The spaces covered by this code of conduct are also the communities specifically tied to GeekNights. We want you to talk about the topics we talk about on the show. React to us. Correct us. Teach us. Respond to the words we say on the show and in our panels.
Every time you post, consider if what you’re posting serves these goals. Ask yourself these questions:
- Am I sharing something interesting about my hobbies or interests?
- Am I reacting to or commenting on a GeekNights episode or panel, or a topic specifically discussed in one?
- Will someone else in the GeekNights community learn something interesting from what I’ve posted?
- If I am arguing or disagreeing with someone, am I saying anything new, interesting, or constructive?
- If I am correcting or otherwise calling someone else’s post out, am I doing this in good faith with the goal of a continuing constructive conversation?
If you can’t honestly answer “yes” to at least one of these questions, you are probably not furthering the goals of this community.
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It makes perfect sense to me. I use Twitter (for example) to shitpost and amplify things I’m already thinking. Also, to keep abreast of the Right Now. A lot of social media is about living in the moment, and commentary to that effect.
A forum is sorta…meta to that. It’s a step removed from Right Now, and includes Back Then as part of its discussion. Less chaotic, and perhaps less dramatically impactful.
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