Growing up being taught that hell was real is the one thing I resented most about my childhood, and the thing I resented most about my parents. It was a very hard conversation to have with my father years later, conveying just how fucked up it made me for many years. It led to all kinds of weird situations at church, where the leaders held almost total control over people, all based on exploiting their fear of ending up in hell.
I sort of love how silly some of that is. Maybe you have a responsibility to walk through the door first then?
Or tell everyone to grab chairs and broomsticks or whatever and bumrush the murderer and beat the shit out of them?
Thus a fundamental difference in how people approach problems.
I’d doubt anyone’s claim that there was a murderer outside the door. Now, if someone staggered back through the door and fell over dead with a knife in them, I would doubt this significantly less.
If someone went through the door, I’d text them to see if they were OK.
But that’s due to a deep and healthy incredulity toward the statements of others in almost all contexts.
I think @PrinceRobot and I were on the assumption that we were in fact 100% certain for whatever reason, already past the totally reasonable doubting. Maybe PrinceRobot was the one who went first and got stabbed?
I notice that none of your reactions involves you going outside to check :-p
Funny aside, that is how I literally scared the hell out of (into?) the goddy kids in high school.
I’d accept their premise that god is real, but argue that he is evil and I am his enemy. I’d more willingly accept hell and try to fight back than accept his imposed and unkind order.
It shook one person so much she started crying and ran away. Way moreso than when she just believed I was an atheist.
Probably. Wouldn’t be the first time I was the first one murdered in a hypothetical.
It’s kind of amazing how many times we have this one conversation yet we don’t have a thread for it.
People sinning is an inherent BAD. Regardless of whether the person goes to heaven or hell it is still better (in a moral sense) that people do less sin.
Is there anyone here who lives/lived in Chicago? I start a job in the Loop on the 9th and I’m looking at housing now, I’d like to get advice from someone other than my racist uncle.
The problem with that argument is what one defines as a “sin.”
Some things are pretty obvious: murdering people is bad. I don’t think you’ll find any reasonable person who’d disagree with that.
However, for many of these fundies, being in a homosexual relationship is a sin (for example). That’s where the problem with them arises.
Edit: and yeah, you probably were trying to explain their logic from their point of view as opposed to saying what is and isn’t a sin… My bad. Need more coffee I guess.
Well, yeah. What do they think heavy metal is for?
To quote Stephen Fry:
Talk to WUB/David Manglano.
Just want to say, been thru all this, the years of services and sunday schools and the youth retreats: this is highly accurate.
This isn’t even the fringe groups. This is just your bog-standard Christians as far as I can tell. I grew up in rural CT and this is what we were taught. I went to middle and highschool in North Carolina and it was almost identical. I hear similar stories from similar people who lived out west, from Minnesota, Wisconsin, all over the US. Pretty sure the European experience isn’t that far removed.
At any rate the whole thing with laws is even if there are people who are going to live in sin, I feel the Christian perspective is laws which allow people to legally do all sorts of sinful things means society is encouraging such things by being legal, and thus leads to a further degredation of society. They see it as a few bad apples spoil the bunch, and the ability for the sinners to ‘get away with’ living their hedonistic lifestyle endorsed by the state undermines their ability to live in good environment. It endangers their kids who are exposed to all sorts of vice. It allows for moral decay which leads to lower productivity, etc.
That’s the perspective. They want a society that is close to Godliness and thus need to oppose any leeway for living alternative lifestyles as it encourages such growth which undermines their mission and threatens their lifestyle.
I am not against self driving cars, I just don’t want one. Not for any fear of them being unsafe, I know they are safe, but because I just like to drive. I like the experience of driving a car. I don’t get mad in traffic because I like being in my car. I love to drive long distances with nothing but the radio. I get that self driving cars are better for the environment, for safety and all that but I have a big part of me that just wants to feel that experience. And no VR is not a substitute because its not real and I know its not real, and no driving on a track is not the same either, though it is also a thrilling experience in another way.
There are a lot of things that people enjoy doing, but enjoyment does not justify the costs to society. Driving a car is extremely harmful.
When a human drives a car they create a risk of injuring or killing themselves and others. A viable self driving car will reduce this risk.
When a human drives a car they expend valuable energy, polluting the earth. A viable self driving car will drive with incredible precision and efficiency, saving a ton of energy and reducing emissions.
When a human owns a car, that car takes up a very large portion of public space. A self-driving car will probably not be privately owned. Cars as a whole will take up a lot less room on the earth as a whole. That leaves more space for other things. More housing, more bike paths, more parks, more everything.
Many people enjoy driving cars, myself included! But we have to recognize that mere enjoyment does not justify the cost to society. Therefore, when the time comes, we should no longer allow people to drive cars in most circumstances.
I like the experience of mag-dumping my AR-15 in the privacy of a friend’s property without any safety officers watching over our shoulders or neighbors calling in noise complaints or whatever else. But I’m pretty sure the ability to do that legally won’t last for long in the US.
By the same reasoning I predict eventually owning a 911 will be as stigmatized as a 1911.
Am I using faulty logic here? I seems like the antis’ arguments will write themselves: “Why do you own a fancy car, do you have fantasies of being a street racer?” “You’re more likely to kill yourself in a car than to be killed by an automated vehicle going wrong” “Children are fed up of their friends dying from kids stealing mom and dad’s car and running amok” “Parents, buying human-driven cars because they don’t trust science are getting their kids killed” etc etc. It’s the same arguments. Slightly different circumstances but that won’t matter.
To be honest, I’d rather be a pariah than give up either. I hate it that I have to deal with people trying to take away the things I like to do safely because other people are evil or dumbasses. Its the same reason I hate the people that try to stop you and rifle through your shopping cart at Lowe’s or Target because they didn’t deactivate their stupid RFID in something. I don’t steal. It’s not my problem that other people steal, its not my problem that other people can’t fucking drive and it’s not my problem that other people, whose responsibility is to do so, can’t keep guns away from people that shouldn’t have them.