Overwatch


#826

With the exception of Mei nothing really takes away mobility for more than a second. A pushback from an explosion or boop doesn’t even take away your ability to turn and shoot. I don’t see the problem, doesn’t bother me.


#827

I’m ok with losing games. I’m ok with getting my ass kicked. I’m ok with being completely dominated by a pro player.

The two things I am most not ok with in any competitive game are games that are over but not over, and games that take away agency.

If I’m down by 1000 points, there’s no reason for the game to continue. Games need to end as soon as one player/team has reached 100% chance of victory. Tennis gets it right.

If I’m playing Quake, I may have no frags. I may have no chance of getting a frag. Despite that, I can still move around. I can jump and shoot. I can get weapons. I can look around. I’m in no way prevented from playing Quake and having fun playing Quake. I can’t win, but I can play.

Stunning, freezing, disabling, “mind control”, all of these are bullshit where the player loses agency. The classic example is the Magic: the Gathering Statis deck. Even if a player is going to lose, they should at no time lose the ability to play, even for a second. Otherwise what’s the point?

And before you bring up any other classic examples, yes I even think that the dizzy mechanic in Street Fighter II is awful.


#828

Y’all are acting like these stuns in Overwatch are a big deal. They last like a second, and they’re rare.

COUNTERSTRIKE even has this. If you’re getting shot, it slows you down and messes your input up a bit. It’s neither new nor bad.


#829

It is not new, it is still bad.


#830

You do realize that you lose agency every time you get hit in Street Fighter. Not just when you get dizzy. To be exact, you lose agency every time you attack too, gotta wait until recovery is over to do something else.


#831

I disagree. You’re deeply oversimplifying.

A “stasis deck” in Magic would “stun” the other player for basically the entire game.

A “stun” in Overwatch is literally equivalent to taking a bullet in CS or getting hit by a rocket and knocked back a bit in Quake. The people who are complaining about this in Overwatch are exaggerating by an insane degree.

It’s less than even that in Overwatch. It’s nothing. It’s also skill-based on both sides.


#832

That’s how Overwatch works. The match has an objective. The second you achieve it (or the other team does), the game is over.

If it’s tied, it goes into an Overtime that forces a conclusion.

Games can’t linger if one team is bad.

Even if you’re attacking, there’s a timer. If you fail to achieve the goal before the timer runs out, the game just ends. Because of the overtime mechanics, even if you have 1 second left in the timer, you could theoretically still take the point by getting it to overtime, and then win the match. But the second that timer is over, the match is over. It’s a lot like Football’s endgame. Just keep running even if the clock runs out (until you no longer have the ball).

I’ve won games where we failed on the attack repeatedly, ran out of time but had someone get on the payload. We rode the payload the entire rest of the map in Overtime. If we’d lost contact with that payload for even a second the game would immediately been over.


#833

For some actual numbers on the longer stuns:
Sleep Dart: 5.5 sec max
Frozen: 1.5 sec slow, 1.5 sec frozen
Earthshatter: 2.5 sec
Flashbang: .7 sec

It’s worth noting that no one really complains about these, so I don’t think duration of stun has much to do with it.

I think that most of the perceived problems are just a consequence of adding more heroes because to be viable they must be useful and behave differently from the existing heroes.


#834

The more I look at these complaints, they seem to boil down to:

“I want to play this character this way, but it isn’t that effective and I want the game changed to make me personally better without having to actually get better or learn a different character.”

They could play the character they want if they were better at the game. They could also play a different character that they’d likely be better with.

They’re mad that they have to pay attention to people sneaking up on them from the side. They’re like the kids who would make mostly straight maps in Stunts 4D racing because they weren’t good a turning. Or the kids who would demand everyone build for 10 minutes before rushing in Starcraft/C&C because they weren’t skilled enough to play the real game.


#835


#836

Looking at those numbers alone mean little. If you die because of Flashbang, it’s not just 0.7 seconds, it’s several seconds of respawn time and then walk back into fight. I’m not saying stuns in Overwatch or any other game are bad, but I do understand the frustration that comes when you die suddenly with little warning of chance to retaliate. Alone it means little, but if you are having bad day and just keep dying again and again and nothing seems to work or make things better, it’s frustrating and annoyihng and at that point 0.7 seconds starts to feel like 70 seconds.


#837

Here’s a specific example. We wrecked another team in comp a couple seasons back. We did so primarily because one member of their team wasn’t pulling their weight.

They were freaking out complaining about me specifically for “hard countering” them with Mei.

The reality? They insisted on playing Reaper. They kept trying to flank us or come around from behind. But they weren’t sneaky at all, and our team was really good about calling out where they were skulking around. So whenever they were behind our lines, I’d just be there and freeze them to death.

If they were better at Reaper, they could have either actually snuck past us or they could easily have killed me. Or, they could have switched to a different flanker or even a different role.

It’s not a “hard counter” if you’re just bad at the game.


#838

No different than dying of a headshot from a sniper.


#839

No different than dying of a headshot from a sniper.


#840

I know and that’s true. Good Widow (or any sniper in other games) can create similar frustrations. Didn’t try to deny it.


#841

Yeah, I think stuns are being blamed because it sticks in your mind when you die to them. Same thing happens with a good sniper, but that’s pretty standard in shooters, a hamster landing on you and spewing out bombs is not.


#842

That’s why I think Mei was made so cute. Imagine the same powers, but with Reaper standing there. You’d put your keyboard through your monitor.


#843

But almost none of these complainers are mad about Widow. CS never banned the AWP.


#844

There’s a bad analogy coming. I can feel it in my waters, smell it on the horizon.


#845

I think it’s partially that sniping feels that it takes lots of skill, meanwhile McCree presses E somewhere around you and kills you, or Mei holds mouse button down and points somewhere kinda your direction.

Not that many good snipers among low skill players, and that’s the viewpoint I’m most familiar with.